When you give your music for free
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| #1
Snake Crew Guru Posts: 132 |
posted 02-15-2001 08:45 PM
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essentially you are stating that it is worthless Napster has devalued all music, I hate them Chances are slim enough now they have been made even slimer. Thank that ripoff Shawn good job ruining this industry. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #2
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1503 |
posted 02-15-2001 09:00 PM
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quote: Understandable, Rene. Especially since you are managing an established artist. But you must realize that the record companies give away free product on a regular basis for promotion purposes. Especially for new artists. I have booked a lot of established artists in my day. I have a lot that want to be booked somewhere in my area. They always send me a lot of free content in their packages. Not just for me. But for distribution as a form of promotion. All the legal issues aside, exposure on Napster doesn't seem to be hurting anyone's careers right now. The big guys are still big. Still selling lots of CDs and concert tickets. Still getting lots of radio and jukebox play. Still selling lots of T-Shirts and posters. While I realize that Napster may one day hurt sales, it hasn't so far. There are no numbers that show this loss of sales. Just estimates of some future damage. Don't you see any value at all on using Napster as free promo? Like all the other millions of dollars of free promo that goes on every day? ------------------ [This message has been edited by KennyLee (edited 02-15-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #3
Snake Crew Guru Posts: 132 |
posted 02-15-2001 09:39 PM
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I likewise give free promo out but not to the fans very seldom, mainly agents, media, people, you know like what you said you were Redistributing music by fans to millions you want to predict sales off of unprecedented mass looting. When Harvey went into Napster to see for himself he almost had a heart attack. Thats 75 years between us in this guild. I Hate you all. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #4
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1503 |
posted 02-15-2001 09:52 PM
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quote: My IQ varies from moment to moment. [image not archived] But I do know that the numbers showing mass looting are not there. Yet. Maybe tomorrow, or next year, or in 5 years, the Napster Effect will show up in real numbers. But right now, at this very moment there are no numbers. I can understand the labels being pissed because of the control factor. Numbers be damned. "Make up some numbers, boys. They are taking our control." And, to be honest, I am confused about this. I don't know why people are buying $18 CDs. But they are. In mass quantities. Maybe it's the package. Maybe people need the package. Must be something. Cause every Best Buy is discounting CD Burners and blank CDs right now. And selling the shit out of label CDs right next to 'em! For over ten times the cost of a blank! So all this hate that you have for Napster doesn't seem to be based on numbers, Rene. It seems to be based on the idea of Napster. I mean, who cares if Napster is there as long as the numbers are fine? Right? [image not archived] ------------------ [This message has been edited by KennyLee (edited 02-15-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #5
CBH3 Records Guru Posts: 503 |
posted 02-16-2001 08:19 PM
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essentially you are stating that it is worthless HAHA, what a brilliant statement. Seems that Phil and I were stating this over and over again on this BB about a year ago. We only gave out 30 to 60 second clips of our music and ragged on all the freebie providers. Such irony that now Phil and I have free tunes on Besonic and Ampcast because we got tired of preaching to dead ears and wanted someone to hear our respective music (he: Phil Frazier, me: CBH3) in case we land an all important film score in a black & white German art flick. HAHA! I can't feel too sorry for someone that gripes about Napster while giving away free tunes on MP3.con. And if you think you can be OMD free, think again. When I first tried to pull all music off the net, it took months and even a year later, certain sites still have music up that I told them to take down. It's like a virus. And then there's the sites that copy your tunes to their site without your consent! It happened to me. Good luck putting the lid back on Pandora's box, snakedude... ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #6
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1503 |
posted 02-17-2001 01:04 PM
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quote: Or listensmart.com. Or anyOMD.com. Stephen pointed this out earlier. And this is the main flaw in the Napster opposition's argument. For example, my tunes that show up on Napster come from a variety of OMDs I have put them on. The tunes that I have not put on an OMD do not show up on Napster. And like yourself, my tunes are on a variety of sites in lower Transylvania or wherever. Why? Because they are on the internet. Point being, if you are an independent artist that hates Napster? Just don't put your music on the internet. And it probably will never end up on Napster. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #7
Hatchet Man Guru Posts: 425 |
posted 02-17-2001 10:18 PM
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I didn't like the idea of Napster at first. Then I got used to the concept. To me it's sort of like radio. Now that Napster will probably pitch in on some royalties, I don't mind at all. I jst don't like the idea of not getting paid for my product. I don't feel that I am an "Artist". I feel that I am a song writer and singer. I also play guitar & bass. I feel it is a service. Just as other people get paid for their service, I like to be paid for mine. Now it is true that most material on the Net has to be given away forever because it is crap & no one will ever pay for it. If one can get to apoint where people feel that what you are offering is worth their money then you can feel ok with taking their money. I am not so stubborn as to cling to my views when it is shown to me that my views are not practicle to myself. One must accept certain realities. IP: Logged |
| #8
CBH3 Records Guru Posts: 503 |
posted 02-17-2001 10:21 PM
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I did a little research last night. Napster came up with at least 50 hits for "Harvey Mandel". MP3.con shows that Harvey has made 50 cents for the entire month of February. Welcome to Frustrated Indie Musicians/Managers Anonymous, Rene.... ------------------ [This message has been edited by CBH3 Records (edited 02-17-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #9
Snake Crew Guru Posts: 132 |
posted 02-17-2001 11:16 PM
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I pulled all of our content from mp3.com They are losers I can't have Snake associated Napster has all the consumers I hate them all now ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #10
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1503 |
posted 02-18-2001 03:20 AM
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quote: Nope. It's the other way around. Just to get you focused on your true enemy, Rene? The reality is that all the consumers have Napster. The users of Napster are the ones who are putting your Harvey Mandel cuts on the Napster screen. The users of Napster are who are letting people download Harvey Mandel for free. Napster doesn't care whose music is traded/shared by the users. Napster doesn't decide. The users decide. Other file sharing interfaces you also hate but just don't know it yet: BearShare CuteMX Freenet File Rogue Filetopia Gnutella iMesh KaZaA LimeWire MojoNation Napigator Riffshare SongSpy Scour AudioGalaxy Blocks Circles DirectConnect eDonkey2000 FileFind FileFury GotchaPort Gnutmeg Hotline Communication Konspire NetBrilliant OnShare OpenNap: Open Source Napster Server Punch WebGroups Yo!nk All have the same thing in common with Napster. The consumers use them to trade. And you hate them all. And you hate the 100 million people that are using them to share music for free. Soon to be everyone in the world. Soon you will hate everyone in the world Rene. Because everyone in the world will be sharing music. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #11
deel Guru Posts: 228 |
posted 02-18-2001 03:40 AM
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quote: sharing is love. sharing is happiness. sharing is free. it's all good. good is love. good is happiness. good is free. sharing is good. rinse, repeat.. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #12
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1503 |
posted 02-18-2001 10:39 AM
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We are the world. We are the children.
quote: ------------------ [This message has been edited by KennyLee (edited 02-18-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #13
Snake Crew Guru Posts: 132 |
posted 02-18-2001 02:13 PM
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The only thing I want to share with all these assholes is Herpes(genital) I now wish I had contracted the disease so I could share something like that over the internet I hope everyone is happy you ruined a perfectly good business/industry I hope the techs figure out a way to bomb all the offenders. kenny get a life you fucking loser ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #14
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1503 |
posted 02-18-2001 03:29 PM
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quote: I guess I really am a fucking loser. But at least I've got music. And this happy little song. sharing is love. sharing is love. [image not archived] it's all good. [image not archived] good is love. [image not archived] sharing is love. * ©2001 Kenny and the Kids show ------------------ [This message has been edited by KennyLee (edited 02-18-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #15
Holy Zoo Guru Posts: 571 |
posted 02-18-2001 07:52 PM
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quote: Uhhh... sorry to have to be the one to point this out to you, but you forgot something (like: the whole page) [image not archived] ------------------ [This message has been edited by Holy Zoo (edited 02-18-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #16
Snake Crew Guru Posts: 132 |
posted 02-18-2001 08:17 PM
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Yeah I left The Jerry Garcia Matrix thing because I don't want Jerry pissed off at us for never giving anything up for free. I took down 50 songs 5 DAMS and left the page. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #17
Holy Zoo Guru Posts: 571 |
posted 02-18-2001 08:20 PM
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quote: Guess we have a different definition of "all".
quote: ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #18
CBH3 Records Guru Posts: 503 |
posted 02-18-2001 09:59 PM
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Damn, that's a helluva list, Kenny. I didn't even know there were that many Napster clones out there. Damn! The "truth" about Napster is that it's kinda like an LA riot. It's anarchy. If a color TV is sitting there waiting for you to take it for free because someone else already smashed the store window, is it worthless? Hell no! It's something of value that you can steal if you have the guts. It has value still and it can be called free but only because you stole it and paid $0.00 for it. When Metallica releases a song for radio play, that is a freebie. When Joe College offers all of their albums on Napster, he is violating copyrights just as the people who download the songs are violating it too. There's three main class groups that I see on Napster: 1. unsigned indie music that nobody gives a shit about (and probably want to be napstered), 2. Indie and Mainstream music that you hear on the radio anyway (so stop bitching), 3. Indie and Mainstream music that is not authorized to be given away for free) Number 2 & 3 comprise the majority of music on Napster. Number 3 is the only one worth griping about and it is also what makes the service thrive. People aren't flocking to this service in droves to download shit they heard on the radio, they like the idea of getting something for nothing and it is worth far more than "nothing". Smoke that. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #19
notesleb Guru Posts: 532 |
posted 02-18-2001 10:28 PM
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CBH3, That makes sense but I still don't necessarily see it as any different than what I did in the 70s and 80s. The sound quality and availability is a little better but not much different than the bootlegs and copies of friends tapes and records that I had. Why the panic? IP: Logged |
| #20
CBH3 Records Guru Posts: 503 |
posted 02-18-2001 11:36 PM
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I'm not panicking... I think your analogy leaves out one important detail. In the "old" days, it took time to record albums and the "network" was only as big as your circle of friends. Napster's network is global and with broadband cable, DSL, T1 & T3, it is possible to download a shitload of music in very little time. I've grabbed a whole album in less than 10 minutes before and then seen someone connect to me and grab tracks from it before I even logged off. Music is literally beaming around the globe, 24/7, at blazing speeds. Most modem owners don't see this but once you go broadband, baby, you never go back. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #21
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1503 |
posted 02-19-2001 12:17 AM
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quote: That's just the main list of utilities from www.zeropaid.com . Doesn't even include Rapigator or MusicCity, which I now use. Some are Gnutella clients (much improved). Some have their own new networking strategy. A lot of them are not based in the USA. But, hook Rapigator up the the MusicCity servers and you get a better faster Napster. So that is why it don't matter if Napster gets shut down or not. As a matter of fact, if Napster gets shut down, all this list of competitors would love it. Napster is last years internet model. And I say all of this to point out to you anti-Napster guys, that the problem is not Napster. The problem is the USERS OF NAPSTER!!!! Who have got plenty of other, better ways to do what you see on Napster. The problem is that the internet does not have an in-between position. The internet is either "ON" or the internet is "OFF". The only way to stop Napster and its brethren is to turn the internet "OFF". Rene is ready to turn the internet "OFF". With the exception of 4 live cuts from the Matrix. That he wants to leave "ON". ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #22
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1503 |
posted 02-19-2001 12:35 AM
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quote: Which group are you in? I'm the little independent guy. Not affiliated with the RIAA. Napster is not hurting me. I do know what is hurting me, though, in this modern internet age of music. And nobody is talking about it. What is it, Kenny Lee, you ask? SUPPLY AND DEMAND. The supply of recording artists has multiplied a thousand times. The demand for recordings has stayed constant. Which leads me to the new thread I'm getting ready to start. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #23
notesleb Guru Posts: 532 |
posted 02-19-2001 02:10 AM
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I don't disagree with you Carl but I still think you have to find people who want to support you. I normally only buy shit that really blows me away, I think the majority of people that buy CDs are this way. We work hard for our money and try to spend it wisely. I also think you have to play out live, I think you have to play out live, I just really I don't know, I just can't see Napster as being a bad thing...for music or for those that P.S. IP: Logged |
| #24
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1503 |
posted 02-19-2001 07:13 AM
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quote: I agree, I agree, I really agree. Which is the way it has always been. All the big acts have made their mark on the live stage. I can't think of a one act right now that made it big and never played a lot of live shows. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #25
deel Guru Posts: 228 |
posted 02-19-2001 09:21 AM
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XTC one of my all time fav bands played very few live shows. (andy partridge had severe stagefright, so bad it would mess with his heart, so i heard). they were screwed by thier label and now are being screwed by the file "sharing" community. cbh3 makes a good point about the difference between the 70's and present day..the consequences of it are already being seen..have you sold a cd today? playing live will bolster your cd sales to some extent, yet the big advantage that playing live offers is a stronger connection between artist and fan..that bond is what will really help solidify a longer lasting relationship and hopefully cds sales. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #26
notesleb Guru Posts: 532 |
posted 02-19-2001 12:39 PM
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quote: Yes, I'll gladly admit that, I think these artists have to work that much harder to connect with like-eared listeners who WANT to support them. I've never seen RadioHead live (except for TV) but I've bought every CD, I never saw Miles Davis but I have a huge collection of his music. I don't necessarily know the answer for studio artists but a band doesn't always have to play live to get my money. Pitchfork's music attracted me so much that I drove over 6 hours to record and hang with him (it helped that we had similar opinions on the BBs). No one is making any significant sales on the Internet really, not even those companies with tons of money for promotion. I sell CDs locally though. IP: Logged |
| #27
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1503 |
posted 02-19-2001 01:53 PM
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quote: Well, this looks like it confirms the premise, deel. XTC is a great band. But limited themselves severely by not playing live. A Thought: The Grateful Dead did it all on the live stage. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #28
dond Guru Posts: 223 |
posted 02-19-2001 02:57 PM
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Great thread! Supply and demand...Kenny's right, and, there is a lot of music out there! It gets cheaper every day to produce world class recordings too. It's never been easier to become a recording muscian! It's also never been harder to earn a living at it! Everybody posting about live gigs is right on too!!! Live performances are the key to building an audience, and, selling CD's. 95% of our CD sales come from gigs. 5% from web sales. The web is the future however, and, the perfect way to build a continuing relationship with all your live music fans. We don't sell enough product off the web to fill a thimble, but, we feel the constant email contact, (Mostly responses to incoming fan mail..we don't spam it) creates a larger audience for live gigs, and, far more important, allows us to know each visitor as a person. You never get that kind of conversational time with a listener at a gig, like you get from email correspondence. It expands the live feeling in a different way. It's a new world for music creators today! We have to learn how to take the best from the old music industry, and, figure out how to utilize the personal cummunications ability we now have with the internet, and, work with both to continue to earn a living in the new music business. Life is good! ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #29
deel Guru Posts: 228 |
posted 02-19-2001 06:12 PM
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quote: confirms what premise? XTC just never made it big like the police, U2. and that the world wasn't ready for such a refined eclectic band. and possibly like so many musicians, they're windows of opportunity were cluttered with pigeons of the industry leeching thier livelyhood as they tried to just write thier music. now look at it..if a band makes it past the pigeons they're doomed to be sucked dry by the 50 million man sharing network.
i think alot of people would see this as "okay". i see thier reasoning being of "i'm helping this band get exposure, ya know like the greatful dead dude, they were really into the free stuff, and all bands must wanna do it like they did!" or "they'll never really know i'm doing this so what does it matter, and for crying out loud they're starving artists who couldn't afford a lawyer even if they were signed to a big label!" at the rate things are declining, i would KennyLee's stuffed animal kids show will be all the rage, heh! even the lyrics were "borrowed"! ------ sharing is happiness. sharing is free. it's all good. good is love. good is happiness. good is free. sharing is good. rinse, repeat.. * ©2001 the deel lyric library ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #30
CBH3 Records Guru Posts: 503 |
posted 02-19-2001 08:04 PM
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Dang, I'm not sure I can respond to all of that. I'll try. Kenny: "The problem is the USERS OF NAPSTER!!!!" Kenny: Which group are you in? Notesleb: I still think you have to find people who want to support you. I totally agree. I buy CD's of bands I like even if I've napstered their music. I had "Kid A" 2 weeks before it hit the shelves but I bought the real thing too when it came out. I also recently bought Kent "Hagnesta Hill" even though I had the album through napster. When a band really get's through to you, you want to own their music and support them. I've also done the opposite: Bought OK Computer and nearly wore out the CD, so I napstered it to make it easier to find and play the music. Notesleb: I think you have to play out live.
------------------ IP: Logged |
| #31
CBH3 Records Guru Posts: 503 |
posted 02-19-2001 08:12 PM
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BTW, Rene, if you want to really leave MP3c but still have a page there consider this approach: www.mp3.com/cbh3 ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #32
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1503 |
posted 02-20-2001 01:02 AM
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quote: Nope. Hey, I'm a former bar owner. It was a public place and some people did illegal things and got busted. Doesn't have to be a bar for your example though. Could be McDonalds. The public has a right to go to public places and they are responsible for what they do there. Business owners do not have to be the police. My best defense in illegal situations was always acting stupid. Something I can do real well. Some say it's not acting. Like Rene, for example. But anyhow, that is part of the Napster defense. They have a public communication internet service. And the public has a right to be there. Some of the people do illegal things. Like maybe 87% of them. Napster acts stupid and says we don't know. Not our copyrights. Tell us who it is and we will try to kick 'em off. We are stupid, our software is stupid, your software is stupid, too. Not our fault. So far, that argument is not having the desired result. Which is real threatening for anyone that does business with the public. Because it changes the constitutional defense that has kept this country great for so long. The defense that Ronald Reagan used. "I didn't know that was going on? I'm too stupid to know. To stupid to remember. Boy, guess I'm stupid." [image not archived] [This message has been edited by KennyLee (edited 02-20-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #33
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1503 |
posted 02-20-2001 01:26 AM
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quote: [image not archived] sharing is love * ©2001 Kenny and the Kids show ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #34
CBH3 Records Guru Posts: 503 |
posted 02-20-2001 02:49 AM
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My best defense in illegal situations was always acting stupid. Something I can do real well. Ladies and Gentlemen, let's have a big hand for Kenny Lee!!!!! **APPLAUSE** hehe ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #35
CBH3 Records Guru Posts: 503 |
posted 02-20-2001 02:51 AM
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BTW, if Barney shows up here, blood will be drawn! Enough with the insipid children's hour. Ouch!!! ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #36
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1503 |
posted 02-20-2001 12:07 PM
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[image not archived] "I love deel *©2001 Kenny and the Kids show ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #37
Snake Crew Guru Posts: 132 |
posted 02-20-2001 02:23 PM
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kenny you screwed up my thread dildo ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #38
deel Guru Posts: 228 |
posted 02-20-2001 03:00 PM
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Kenny...pssst.. the medication, please take it.  ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #39
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1503 |
posted 02-20-2001 04:27 PM
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quote: Hey!! I'm still on topic, Rene. deel shared his song for free. I have an opposing view of the tune. You talk about hate so I am offering the opposing view of love. Nothing says love quite like Barney. I close with these words from someone who understands. Ernesto
quote: MP3.com earnings $139,258.97 + $59,888.41 + $2,362.17 = $201,509.55 Sharing has been bery bery good to EC. [image not archived]
[This message has been edited by KennyLee (edited 02-20-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #40
Snake Crew Guru Posts: 132 |
posted 02-20-2001 08:36 PM
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he did ok A gaming suspect too! ------------------ IP: Logged |
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