NAPSTER RULING IGNORES BASIC PRINCIPLES OF COPYRIGHT (page 2)
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| #41
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1476 |
posted 02-15-2001 05:12 AM
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quote: Not at all, deel. Hair is physical property. If CD's are confusing the issue for you. How about cassette tapes? The tape is physical property. That you can record audio information on. But you can erase, rerecord, etc. Ian Clarke of Freenet talks about this quite a bit. It is his whole raisen d'etre. The difference between property and information. Jim Griffin discusses it at length, too. Copying a computer file is not like stealing a car. Not saying that information does not have value. But sharing information does not deprive the owner of his property like stealing a car. It just allows others to have the same information. We live in a society in which all men are supposed to be treated equally. If you can't afford to educate yourself? The government will do it for you. Keeping information from people keeps them down. Gives one person power over another. This is the politics of our time and the decisions are being made now. Are we going to allow the hoarding of information? Enriching a select class perpetually. Or are we going to be able to share information in a free society? So far we have been into sharing information. But now the political winds are changing toward hoarding information. Allowing only the rich to have the information. Requiring the poor to pay for what little they can afford. So, there is no hair to split. But a giant chasm between the two points of view. They got the guns but we got the numbers. War, unh, what is it good for? Virgil Cain was my name and we rode on the Danville Train. The Night They Drove Ole Dixie Down, deel. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #42
deel Guru Posts: 217 |
posted 02-15-2001 08:16 AM
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so in essence what you are saying kenny is that even if you work hard to make a killer sounding cd and pour your heart and soul into it, you are considered a snob/eletist if you desire to sell copies and not give them away? ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #43
pmarinovich Guru Posts: 402 |
posted 02-15-2001 10:54 AM
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deel, What are you talking about? Soul? Surely things like soul and love and labor are not physical properties and, therefore, have no right to protection under the law. Well, I suppose heart is a physical property, but not in your context. Just ask Kenny. He is such a wonderful artist advocate. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #44
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1476 |
posted 02-15-2001 12:12 PM
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quote: What profiteth a man, deel? If he gains the world to lose his very soul? Is it all about personal enrichment? Or is it all about the artist having a vision to share with all of humankind? Personal enrichment is all about sales. And if that is our goal? Then there are much better products for us all to sell than music or art. Products that cannot be digitally transferred or copied. Like mobile homes, deel. There is a lot of money to be made in the mobile home sales business. Gaining personal enrichment by hoarding art or music or other information? Allowing only the members of humankind to access that can pay a fee? That is a strong political statement. Which runs counter to the politics of equality we are supposed to be following and that many people have died to protect. But gaining enrichment by selling mobile homes? That is just capitalism at work. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #45
pmarinovich Guru Posts: 402 |
posted 02-15-2001 02:31 PM
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quote: That would be Mark 8:36. Now you are really out of your element. And out of your league, I might add. Quoting the New Testament to justify stealing? You're digging the biggest hole I've ever seen. quote: Art, whether it be music, dance, literature, poetry, visual art or whatever, is a demonstration that we as a society has evolved beyond the basic animalistic instincts to compete for food and shelter by killing and stealing. Art often results from the effort to discover what a "soul" and "spirituality" are all about. The peak of every civilization throughout history has been represented by its art. What kind of civilization would choose to devalue art? When we say that artists are not contributing anything important, then we are stepping backwards in our own evolutionary development. Paying money to artists in order to help them continue their work is another way of saying: "We are not merely animals, we have evolved." It helps to prove that we do indeed have souls. Yes, it is about "having a vision to share with all of humankind." That's the very reason some of us are trying to protect it. I'm not going to let you turn this one around. quote: Of course not. quote: Selling music and art helps to purpetuate music and art. Nothing is free. Nothing has ever been free. If you don't pay artists, you will lose artists, plain and simple. Artists are precious. By destroying copyrights, you stand to lose much of that which helps to make us civilized. Sure, there will always be some art, regardless of whether or not you pay artists. But not paying them is akin to slavery. I think that most civilized people would concede that slavery is wrong. But you can't concede anything can you Kenny. You have resorted to self-righteous Bible quoting, as though God himself has sanctioned your thoughts. quote: Hoarding art? Demanding that society support it by funding it is hoarding? Do you think it is a better idea to strangle it by not funding it? Once again, you are still referring to music and art as "information." Jesus you are making some huge leaps here. quote:Man, you are stretching it beyond belief. As a child, before I was ever able to pay for anything, my life was enriched by music. All I am saying is that process should be allowed to continue. Taking away payment to the artists will ultimately mean that the children of the future will be listening to the same music we are listening to now. quote: You've got it backwards. Music is a vehicle that often brings recognition to thousands of minority artists, raising them out of reservations and ghettos into a higher quality of life. You want to take away their royalties, like the record industry did to Fats Domino, Little Richard, Robert Pete Williams and thousands of minority artists who were covered by pretty White boys. quote: Nothing wrong with capitalism. It is the bloodline of democracy. Now, on the otherhand, an unregulated internet which robs from the rich and the poor and gives to anybody who wants anything is just anarchy.
[This message has been edited by pmarinovich (edited 02-15-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #46
pmarinovich Guru Posts: 402 |
posted 02-15-2001 02:34 PM
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I just wanted to add something for clarity. If there is someone here who has "lost his soul," it sure as hell isn't deel. The fucking nerve. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #47
deel Guru Posts: 217 |
posted 02-15-2001 04:55 PM
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thanks pete..  kenny, i responded to your drivel in the other thread...you are the one who is losing it. wake up man. here is a basic profile for me: husband/father/musician/artist/carpenter/bb-addict as a husband: i'm a loving, caring trustworthy partner. as a father: i'm always there if the kids need me, one thing i try to promote is being an individual. and i never take them to mcdonalds. as a musician: i have created this year alone around 250 peices of music..if i go back to 1982..when i started this madness i couldn't count the songs/performances..i do it because i love to do it, not for money, yet if someone were to invest in me i would gladly consider it. as a visual artist: i have never created art soley for profit..yet i have sold numerous pieces, shame on me.. as a bb-addict: i try to take what is said on all of these forums with a grain of salt, because it is much easier to sit behind the keyboard trying to sound like yoda than to actually get out in the real world and use the force. don't go to the dark side Kenny.. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #48
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1476 |
posted 02-15-2001 05:40 PM
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quote: Ok. Obi-deel. I haven't and I won't. I will stay with the rebel forces fighting against the clutches of the evil empire. [image not archived] ------------------ [This message has been edited by KennyLee (edited 02-15-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #49
notesleb Guru Posts: 527 |
posted 02-15-2001 09:29 PM
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Pete,
quote: You're a nut. Who pays and who gets paid? What is the criteria? Who decides?
[This message has been edited by notesleb (edited 02-15-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #50
pmarinovich Guru Posts: 402 |
posted 02-15-2001 10:21 PM
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quote: Ahh, the childish minds continue to play. I was quite wrong about you, Stephen. I won't be wasting any more of your time. Good luck with your career. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #51
notesleb Guru Posts: 527 |
posted 02-15-2001 10:54 PM
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Thanks for leaving links to your music in all of your posts Pete, I enjoyed listening to it for free. IP: Logged |
| #52
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1476 |
posted 02-16-2001 12:29 AM
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quote: Thanks, Stephen. You did great yourself. Which part did you like best? Myself, I thought the mobile homes was a good touch. Nobody really caught it though. Anyhow, no matter which side of the issue people are on? I want them to have some good entertaining and informational reading. You know, if Pete and I could just get our own "point/counterpoint" TV show? I think we could keep 'em tuned in. Tuned into ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #53
notesleb Guru Posts: 527 |
posted 02-16-2001 01:28 AM
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The Star Wars reference rattled my funny bone the most but there was too much in this thread to single one thing out. Well, posting my true thoughts on the issue with a bit of humor seems to have created an enemy (possibly a few for you). Just so we all know Kenny and I aren't the only ones who make sense
quote: IP: Logged |
| #54
Tom Aragon Guru Posts: 338 |
posted 02-16-2001 01:55 AM
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[image not archived] Napster at Work ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #55
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1476 |
posted 02-16-2001 02:03 AM
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quote: Well, I hope not. People can disagree and discuss different issues. And the issues are hot right now, no doubt. Major changes are in the air. Guess I just enjoy talking about it. Not just here but on other sites, too. Anyhow, based on recent polling data, I've got 87% friends, 13% enemies on this issue. Anybody will take that ratio and be happy with it. Great quote, by the way. This guy said it much better than most. History is our best teacher. Well, not just history. Star Wars movies are a great teacher too. And it looks like we just finished watching THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. I, of course, am looking forward to the next installment. RETURN OF THE NAPI. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #56
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1476 |
posted 02-16-2001 02:09 AM
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[image not archived] Another Satisfied Tom Aragon Customer *hi tom ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #57
TheBassDude Guru Posts: 364 |
posted 02-16-2001 10:00 AM
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quote: What about the reports the radio stations have to fill out for ASCAP, BMI and the other "watchdogs?" Songwriters get PAID when their music is played, whether the public thinks it's "free" or not. This helps bolster the falacy that the artists/songwriters don't mind distributing their music "free" over the airwaves. The real money in this business is made in publishing... The only near-valid argument I've heard from Napsterites is that since mechanicals don't amount to much where artists are concerned, distribution methods should be irrelevant. This appears valid until you look at the cold, hard facts: 1: Sales of recordings put money in the pockets of record companies. 2: Without the aid of record companies, 99.9999999% of artists have zero chance of achieving enough simultaneous, national (and/or international) exposure via radio airplay for mechanicals to amount to anything. 3: The best chance a songwriting artist has of making money in this business is through publishing. 4: If radio stations (or, to a lesser extent, cover bands) aren't playing your music, you aren't making any publishing royalties. 5: See number 2 above. Bottom line... You may not like the "big money machine," but name one financially successful artist that made it without participating in the "big money machine" game. Sure, the old addage is true... "If you're in it for the money, you're in the wrong business." BUT... It's the "big money machine" that has made it possible for you and me to have a dream of being "rock-stars." After all, without the Rolling Stones or Jimi Hendrix or [insert your most influential artists here], who here would play the way they do... or even want to? Think about it... ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #58
pmarinovich Guru Posts: 402 |
posted 02-16-2001 10:27 AM
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Mr. Lowry, Here is what gets me. ListenSmart was created to make the attempt to achieve income for independent artists through publishing. I watched Sean bust his ass for months trying to make this work. These guys came here to cash in. We all did. One of the biggest reasons that investors are balking at sites like this one is the existence of rogue sites like Gnuetella and Napster. Anyone can see that. So guys like KL and SL come to a pro-artist site and play anti-artist games and wonder why people get pissed off. If we went to the Napster BB and stated our cases we would get mauled by the greedy hoards. They cause sites like this to fail and then they have the nerve to mock ListenSmart with all this "send me your TIN" shit. The hipocracy is mindboggling. You might as well join the rest of us and stop wasting your energy on the smartasses. God, I haven't been this relaxed in a long time. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #59
notesleb Guru Posts: 527 |
posted 02-16-2001 11:37 AM
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quote: Wow, us artists really do have power, we made ListenSmarts investors pull their money? Sean Fenlon must hate Kenny and I. Dear Investors, Please give money to ListenSmart so they can be a great website. Sincerely, if you're listening IP: Logged |
| #60
Davey Boy Crocky Guru Posts: 261 |
posted 02-16-2001 12:30 PM
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I went to the Napster BB and stated my case. I was mauled not by Napsterites, but instead by artists who I knew from these artist BB's who were playing the "Hooray for Napster, Here's my Link" promo game. ------------------ Davey Boy Crocky's Solo Project IP: Logged |
| #61
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1476 |
posted 02-16-2001 01:41 PM
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quote: Well, I agree with your estimate, Bass Dude. Numbers seem about right to me. But, whether you realize it or not, you are making a pro-Napster argument here. Part of the Napster defense is that the record companies are in violation of anti-trust laws. I mean. even Microsoft doesn't have a market share number like the one you came up with. Good job. Thanks. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #62
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1476 |
posted 02-16-2001 02:05 PM
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quote: Well, Pete, I can also see that once again don't know what you are talking about on Napster. More artists are signed to the Napster Artist program than they are to any internet service. With the possible exception of MP3.com. I'll have to check the numbers. When artists sign with Napster, they agree that it is alright for Napster to distribute their music for free. It is a non-exclusive contract, just like MP3.com, ampcast.com, and listensmart.com. Anyhow, Pete, to these thousands of independent artists, plus the artists on BMG records and TVT records, Napster is not anti-artist. And Napster does as much for the independent artist as any other OMD does. More than most. Napster does not have a payment plan, just a promotion plan, it's true. But neither did MP3.com when they first started. BMG is spending 50 million dollars to get one. We'll have to see how that works out. The point is, Pete, Napster is not anti-artist. Kenny Lee is not anti-artist, Stephen LeBlanc is not anti-artist. And a good case can be made that Pete IS anti-artist, because Pete wants to shut down the one major independent artist distribution vehicle still remaining. Where are you gonna put your music next year, Pete. AMP3.com? IUMA.com? Can you afford to bid for a spot at MP3.com? Think about it. What's going on here is that Pete is not well-informed. Also, Pete just wants money. Somebody please get Pete some money. If Napster will send Pete a check, Pete would switch sides in a minute. Well, maybe not Pete, but I know Rene would. ------------------ [This message has been edited by KennyLee (edited 02-16-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #63
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1476 |
posted 02-16-2001 02:35 PM
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quote: I know what you mean, Pete. That Tom Aragon works every time. [image not archived] ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #64
TheBassDude Guru Posts: 364 |
posted 02-16-2001 05:59 PM
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quote: Huh? Anti-Trust? Where the hell did that come from... Last time I checked, there are more than a few record companies competing to make money off of artists... No monopoly there... just good old-fashioned red-blooded American capitalism hard at work... You, too, can play their game and win... All it takes is money... lots of it... These labels weren't born with money coming out of their asses, they competed fair-and-square with other labels for their money. So let me see if I understand you correctly... You are saying that just because you have decided not to work your ass off (and invest every penny you make) becoming a competative record label, and want to remain a whining "gimme-everything-free-cause-I-deserve-it" Napsterite, that there is some form of monopoly at work here... hmmmmmmmm... Sure hope Napster isn't betting the farm on that defense... What am I saying! It appears that is exactly what they did!!! I can hear the judges laughing their asses-off all the way from here. If I were you, I'd be more pissed at how much money is being wasted by Napster trying to defend itself with spuriously laughable arguments. Well, what the hell... it is their money, not yours, right? They can do with it what they want, right? Like maybe... I dunno...
------------------ IP: Logged |
| #65
TheBassDude Guru Posts: 364 |
posted 02-16-2001 06:04 PM
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Thanks for the input, Pete... You are correct. Sean busted his ass to make a site that was decidedly "artist-centric" and all he got for thanks was the bullshit we've been reading thus far. Sean, if you're reading, thank you for all you have done. I hope you can weather the storm. Those Napsterites are gonna need a home pretty soon. DBC - I find arguing with them oddly cathartic... I don't know why... ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #66
TheBassDude Guru Posts: 364 |
posted 02-16-2001 06:07 PM
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BTW:
quote: Well said, Sir Pete! ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #67
TheBassDude Guru Posts: 364 |
posted 02-16-2001 06:18 PM
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Hey Kenny... Here's another thought:
quote: Try this one on for size... You have adamantly maintained that free access to "information" is a right in this country... So why not help yourself to a few copies of files from an NSA computer... after all, by your logic, you haven't stolen anything... and they are just ones and zeros, right? Go ahead... copy a few... they'll still have their copies... What will your defense be?
quote: or maybe...
quote: You can tell me how it went when they let you out of jail in a few decades... Last time I looked, it was a treasonous felony to do exactly what you are describing... Think not? Prove me wrong! ------------------ [This message has been edited by TheBassDude (edited 02-16-2001).] [This message has been edited by TheBassDude (edited 02-16-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #68
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1476 |
posted 02-16-2001 06:25 PM
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quote: Thie suit against Napster is from the RIAA. Which consists of all of the major labels plus some. And as you said, you can't get on the Radio unless you go through them. Or TV. Or stocked in retail chains. The Napster defense deals with a law that says is you use your copyright to kill competition? You lose the right to defend your copyright. And what you are saying, Bass Dude, is that you can't get distribution and promotion without a major label. Which is true. Everybody knows it. Let me also point out, that any musicians chance of getting on a Major label and making any significant money is far less that the 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% you quote. This includes you, oh Bass Dude that is so concerned about the fate of the major labels that don't want your type. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #69
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1476 |
posted 02-16-2001 06:33 PM
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quote: There is a thing called the Freedom of Information Act. I would fill out a form and the government would give me whatever I asked for. Unless it was classified. Like for National Defense. Or pictures of Monica Lewinsky and Hillary Clinton naked. Something like that. But yeah, the government has no problem with giving me all the information I want. It would take a convoy of semi's to handle all the information they will give me free. Call Pueblo, Colorado. They'll send you a catalog. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #70
TheBassDude Guru Posts: 364 |
posted 02-16-2001 06:49 PM
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quote: So what you're insinuating is that labels can't organize against a common foe... hmmmm... nothing monopolistic about that... Unions have been doing that for centuries! I suppose they're illegal, too, huh? Get real!
quote: Huh? What planet are we from today? Using copyright to "kill competition" is the most absurd thing said to date. In case you haven't been paying attention, Ken, I own a record label... I also own the copyright and performance rights to all of the songs on the albums I release. Please tell me how wielding my "magic copyright powers" is going to help me kill my competition... I'd truly like to know...
quote: Nice misquote, there, Ken-my-boy... I believe I said that nobody makes it without playing in "the big money game." Plenty of Independents are thriving without the help of Majors...
quote: Sooooooo... you're saying that because the odds are stacked against them, we should overlook theft? Whiner.
quote: Yup... it sure does include me... another wannabe-a-rock-star who had the balls to do something legal about the system... If you want to do something productive instead of pissing about being a poor, downtrodden soul who can't get a break (boo-fucking-hoo), then start your own label... I did... Jonathan Lowry, President It's not much... but it's mine... Unlike some, I spend my time and energy trying to create a career in music that will one day allow me to unchain the bonds of my 9-5 drudgery and make some music... There you have it... more information than you deserve... But then again, you had a right to it anyway... right? ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #71
TheBassDude Guru Posts: 364 |
posted 02-16-2001 07:07 PM
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quote: Or any major corporation's undisclosed financial records... And what makes nude photos of Hillary unattainable.. just ones and zeros, after all... (not that I'd really want to see Hillary naked... shudder!) The government will give you anything you ask for that they have. hint. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #72
pmarinovich Guru Posts: 402 |
posted 02-16-2001 07:07 PM
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quote: Priceless. IP: Logged |
| #73
deel Guru Posts: 217 |
posted 02-16-2001 07:17 PM
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jonathan, your site looks great! haven't been there in awhile..great logo. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #74
TheBassDude Guru Posts: 364 |
posted 02-17-2001 09:01 AM
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Thanks, Deel!!! I've been really slack about updating it, so I'll give you the news here, first (before it gets posted there): Dolo's song, "The Ride" has been selected for an upcoming movie called Pot Luck with Jason Mewes and Tommy Chong. We are working on a Corrosion of Conformity tribute album, which will include Dolo and several NC bands as well as some major-league heavy-hitters... If you know anything at all about C.O.C. and who they pal-around with, you have an idea of who I mean (we are in the opening round of discussions, and it would be imprudent of me to say who they are right now, but suffice it to say that there is a really good likelyhood that at least three well-known, major-label acts will be contributing!) Dolo's latest performances can be found at The Digital Club Network. Hmmmm... I think that's about it... it's too early in the morning for me to remember everything... Jackie (Jokeman) Martling, Tommy Chong and Jason Peel from Pot Luck The Luna Chicks featuring Pot Luck star Theo Kogan ------------------ [This message has been edited by TheBassDude (edited 02-17-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #75
TheBassDude Guru Posts: 364 |
posted 02-17-2001 09:37 AM
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Hey, Kenny... Why don't you ask the government for a Metallica album? Or any album, for that matter... If they'll give you "any information you ask for," then this should be no problem, right? Think about it. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #76
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1476 |
posted 02-17-2001 11:52 AM
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quote: Ok. I had 2 gigs last night. Plus they were letting me test out the new Don Eduardo tequila they just got in. Seems like there's a lot of good points being made. I'll try to catch up. At the Senate hearings, the Senators download a song by CREED and played it using Gnutella. Gene Kan, said to the Senators, "You have just broken the law". The Senators replied, "No". They then said it was for governmental and educational purposes and it was legal. They then said that they should know since they wrote the law. The government also has libraries that contain recordings I can obtain. Metallica may be one of them. As long as it is for governmental and educational purposes. I pay taxes to the government and I need to be educated. So I guess it's all legal. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #77
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1476 |
posted 02-17-2001 12:12 PM
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quote: What I'm saying is that an individual or an organization can not restrain trade. Break the anti-trust laws. Destroy a competitive market. A union can't do it. the RIAA can't do it. And you can't do it. In this particular case, on the internet, the labels have not set a licensing fee for their music. On radio and TV the fee is set. If you, Bass Dude, decide to become Radio Dude? You can play all the RIAA music you want. And pay a small and reasonable fee to the RIAA. Orrin Hatch is talking about this and says he is willing to pass legislation requiring compulsory licensing! At a rate set by law. That would solve the problem. And anybody, Napster, Crapster, Bass Dude, Kenny Lee Dude, listensmart.comster, whoever, could distribute all the RIAA music they wanted or Bass Dude music they wanted as long as they paid a small and reasonable fee for doing so. Enforcement by law. The RIAA does not like this plan. And have withheld their music from distribution from anything they do not own. Universal now owns MP3.com by virtue of lawsuit. BMG now owns Napster by virtue of lawsuit. Now thats the internet. Independent labels cannot get on the main distribution media unless they form an alliance with a major label. That's the non-cyber world. Monopolistic control of distribution and media outlets is the key to the major labels stranglehold. And the labels have withheld their copyrights from the internet until they get control of it. And slowly but surely, with your support , they are achieving that goal. If the labels lose the anti-trust issue? I'm turning you in. As an unindicted co-conspirator. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #78
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1476 |
posted 02-17-2001 12:24 PM
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quote: Well, Kenny Lee has BeautifulBlues Records. And we all have our own record labels even if we only record and sell ourselves. Saying you have a label sounds cool. But the problems are still the same. So I don't see what your point is here. Except that you are proud of what your personal label has done. Like I am proud of what my personal label has done. But then, I am a self-centered egotist. Always bragging about me. Your case may be different. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #79
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1476 |
posted 02-17-2001 12:31 PM
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quote: Major corporations have to make their financial records public. That information is free at a variety of websites. Hillary nude was a joke I made. But then Hillary nude is probably a joke in reality. I wouldn't know. But you still have a problem dealing (or is that deeling?) with the Freedom of Information Act. And the fact that the government shares information just like Napster allows individuals to do. As soon as I get over this tequila buzz I'll try to find you some links to educate you. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #80
TheBassDude Guru Posts: 364 |
posted 02-17-2001 02:17 PM
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Why not try ordering Metallica from the government... educate yourself... ------------------ IP: Logged |
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