Why are you doing this?
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| #1
Bruce Satinover Guru Posts: 246 |
posted 05-19-2000 12:55 PM
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Lately I've started to question what the point to all the mp3 sites are. I don't mean just from a financial point but what I or any musician gets from it. I make music because that's what I do, because I like making music, because it is a form of expression and because I can't think of doing without, it is something that I genuinely enjoy listening, not only writing/performing. That said, I'm trying to figure out why I've invested the time I've put in online music. Some projects/bands have seen benefit from the web exposure but I wonder if the time spent "up here" might not have been better spent in the real world. I don't have answers and eventually I'm sure I'll reach a conclusion but I'd like to hear what others are thinking. Please, don't make this into a flame thread or joke fest. I'm curious on what drives people or what makes it worthwhile for them. Bruce ------------------ [This message has been edited by Bruce Satinover (edited 05-19-2000).] IP: Logged |
| #2
weAponX Guru Posts: 2116 |
posted 05-19-2000 01:03 PM
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Hm, I originally put my stuff on MP3.com because there was the hope of getting some of my stuff heard. Then 10,000 fake Poseur-Pop bands invaded the PUNK genre and I got buried. I moved it to AMP3 and I got a reasonable amount of attention for all my projects. I put stuff here, originally, not because of the promise of big bucks but just a little bit more exposure. When Social Spit starts playing Live again I want to be able to refer people to a website that will help explain what that project is. MP3: WAS it, AMP3: BECAME it, RIFFAGE: A JOKE, LISTENSMART: COULD be it. I just have a few problems mostly because, this site has been around for a few months now, and NOBODY is downloading- Due mostly to that forced email for non logged in and non member/users. I know my pages are getting the hits too, just nobody is downloading. I hope this is remedied as Sean promises. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #3
DoctorOakroot Guru Posts: 538 |
posted 05-19-2000 01:16 PM
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Hmmm... Should I
Question 2:
B is the correct answer to both questions. I'm still playing live shows, but I'm being more selective about what gigs I take. And, when I think I've got a really awesome CD recorded I'll go back to discmakers for manufacturing. But, at the moment, my definition of an acceptable recording is geting harder to meet much faster than my recording skills are growing. Dr O ------------------ [This message has been edited by DoctorOakroot (edited 05-19-2000).] IP: Logged |
| #4
JimmyStewart Guru Posts: 236 |
posted 05-19-2000 01:17 PM
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Admiral As you know, I have often asked myself the very same question...is the time "spent" or invested on-line worth (to you) what you get back? I suppose it really depends on what you expect to get back, and to be honest, in my case I really expected nothing in return. I suppose we all have had at one time or another, grandiose ideas of becoming the next big discovery, or that some major record label would just click on your page, fall in love with your music, and then sign you up to a major record deal... I came to the net only as a way to have some of my music heard by others that would probably have never had the chance to do so...in that aspect, it's been worth it for me, though I have to admit, I have since the beginning of this year, cut down my on-line time and promotional activities. Just can't find the time for it as much, and I have been devoting more time to writing, recording (not enough..but getting better) and live work. The other aspect of this on-line music scene which I did not really think about initially was some of the very talented and nice people I have met. The chance to collaborate with some of these folks...the contacts made...it has been, at least in my case, very rewarding. It was never a money issue for me...those that know me, also know that. Seems every time the money monster raises it's ugly head, the community of artist's strap on a set of blinders, and all hell breaks loose in search of the almighty dollar...look at the conditions that led to the downfall of AMP3, and what is going on over at MP3 with the P4P issues, NMA, ect...ect... I guess I really did not answer your question...did I? I do it for me...for the reasons I stated above...yet I post much less often as before, and normally only to subjects or people I have feelings for. I don't believe I should impose MY OPINION upon anybody, unless specifically asked for it...and not responding to certain posts that others had deemed as the only serious threads or ones that I SHOULD post to: I don't think it makes me a moron...or a sheep...or a lazy artist, or any of the other descriptions handed out from time to time. Ok...nuff said...I've got music to write...guitars to pack, and driving to do... ------------------ [This message has been edited by JimmyStewart (edited 05-19-2000).] IP: Logged |
| #5
BaptistDeathRay Guru Posts: 337 |
posted 05-19-2000 01:44 PM
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I'm doing this simply because right at the moment I don't know what else to do. It seems the best way I can keep working on making music given my circumstances. Plus, I've met some cool people online and that seems worthwhile to me. Still, I'm getting annoyed with most of the OMDs. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #6
RazoR Newbie Posts: 19 |
posted 05-19-2000 02:09 PM
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For me, if no one hears it, then there is no reason to make it, if a tree falls in a forest......my high comes from other peoples reaction, good or bad, and this is the only place for me, since trying to put a band together is such a shitty experience. Of course in the early days we all got many more people, even non-musicians to listen.....now i'm just glad to share songs and hang out with my net friends, just like surfing, after we surf, we hang out and watch others surf, its simple and soulful...thats why i do it. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #7
Little Doc Newbie Posts: 26 |
posted 05-19-2000 02:47 PM
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quote: Are only downloads counted? If so I wish listens would be counted as well. Especially if we are moving toward a music environment where people just listen instead of download. At work is where I listen to music most from the Internet but I do not download there. I do download at home but I do most of my listening at work. I wish we would get paid for listens as well as downloads to cover both bases. They don't necessarily have to be at the same rate. I do this because I like to play and record. I usually perform with a group of songwriters so there is the enjoyment of meeting with them before and after the show as well as watching them perform. Making some money is an added bonus.
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| #8
parzival Guru Posts: 394 |
posted 05-19-2000 02:48 PM
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it's a grand experiment.. and even if it fails...as most grand experiments do, it's worth watching . BUT!!! 3D land is important...I play solo gigs, do open mics..gig with the band.... the money thing...well...shit I make like 20k a year...my wife makes much less...we raise kids and make house payments with this... someone once promised a lot more....I've never been so excited...then it turned out to be bullshit...I;ve seldom been so dissapointed....but..I'm still here. But I like what I hear and I like having a way to be heard... Jimmy mentions how the money thing causes madness...he's right....of course...i've never been paid ..... so I write..record..perform..and try like hell to break even...havn't done it yet.... but I no longer have any illusions about getting paid for MP3 music...we all know who gets paid. I'm surrounded by art 24/7 If I moved I could get a good gig with a museum and easily double or triple my income....i consider it now and then...especially this past month....the band is probably history at this point. But I love my little, backwards desert town !!! I like having a 500,000 acre backyard!! I'm rambling.... do the right thing.... or, as bill said...."this first, to thine own self be true, and it then follows as the night the day that thou canst be false to no man" all good things BRUCE!!! preacher ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #9
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1114 |
posted 05-19-2000 05:08 PM
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quote: Preacher, a good view of all this. the glass is not 99% empty, it is 1% full. I will add that each particular "site" is a grand experiment. But I think we all know, that for better or worse, the internet is the future of music distribution on this planet. And the coolest thing is, there are only a few hundred independent artists in the whole world involved in it's development. One of these "experiments" will work and that will be the business model for the future. So I don't view this as all in vain, even as we watch failure after failure. Just that we're breaking eggs for the final omelet, so to speak. Also like preacher, I gig in the real world. Beyond all that, there are TWO reasons why I, Kenny Lee, am here on a personal basis. REASON NUMBER ONE: The internet is worldwide! In the real world it is not economically feasible or personally desirable for me to market myself to foreign countries or 50% of the US. REASON NUMBER TWO: The internet is forever! Records are printed in limited quantity. Digital music, however, is infinite. If you put your music in digital form on the internet it will always be there. Forever. Sure, maybe one person a day will access it, but it is there for those than want to find it. As an artist, I really really really like that. ------------------ [This message has been edited by KennyLee (edited 05-19-2000).] IP: Logged |
| #10
Ric Guru Posts: 234 |
posted 05-19-2000 08:03 PM
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quote: Addiction, pure and simple. Sorry for not being wordy, but its the truth. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Ric (edited 05-19-2000).] IP: Logged |
| #11
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1114 |
posted 05-19-2000 08:36 PM
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quote:
I've had to ask myself this question a few times. Especially about the participation on the bulletin boards. But then if you want to be pro-active about this whole new world, you got to jump in and be part of the discussion. So, my own evaluation so far is that it is not addiction but the feeling that the artists must participate in the discussions here, just like we must in the real world. But I'm keeping an eye on myself. Once I slip over the line I hope I can reel myself back in or seek help. Where does the addiction group meet? ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #12
Saint Cheez Guru Posts: 244 |
posted 05-19-2000 08:49 PM
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The internet is the best way to make it big in life without necessarily having alot of money like some scam folks would have you believe. ON THE NET, NO VENTURE MEANS NO GAIN. The net is the best way for a person to become "independent" especially in a financial sense. Except, how can lowly artists become "independent", when they keep running from one music site to another with the hope of becoming independent. They are always hoping that someone else will do it for them. Our dependence on mom-and-dad, gov't, corps, etc. is complete. Sure, people call themselves "independent" but its only in name. Artists should organize their powers and put together their own music site. However, they can only come up with reasons why they can't do it. Yes, that is...really fucked up. Believe me though. I not only preach "independence" by organizing but I also practice it. Many times, I was forced to do it on my own only to discovery that I suddenly had the power to do it. Strange! I was in fact trully amazed and really learned something new about myself. But, you really can not do it all on your own. In dealing with the net or a website, you need the help of other like minded artists. If you really believe in what you are doing, then don't give up on it... and take some personal initiative by organizing without end. The problem is that your music may suffer in the short term, but in the long term there is alot to be gained. However, even in the short term, man, I learned alot which I would not have learned had I done it only for myself. Best wishes, St. Cheez ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #13
Robert Guru Posts: 381 |
posted 05-19-2000 11:55 PM
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Good question: Plain and simple - it's an outlet. It gives me a place for the music to be heard whereby in the "real world" it would only be heard by friends, family and my dog. I don't have false hopes of ever being "discovered" on the Internet. However, it has provided valuable feedback and information.
------------------ IP: Logged |
| #14
STILL Guru Posts: 307 |
posted 05-19-2000 11:59 PM
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Yep. Here's something I just posted awhile back in another thread....
quote: And that's really how I feel about it. I have a nice website of my own, not under somone else's system, and I sell more CD's through it than I ever have anywhere else on the web. I think it's good to have that presence on the web, but the rest, I'm very unimpressed. And again, I ain't like I haven't put some serious effort into it. But that effort would've been much better spent in the real.......... So now I know....... ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #15
Elegie Guru Posts: 230 |
posted 05-20-2000 12:30 AM
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I am myself quite new to this - first started on this internet "thing" last August. The initial intention was getting our music heard by new people, outside our usual "fan"-base. Locally, we've been considered one of the most talented acts for a while now - and we got a decent base of followers. Which brings me to my next point - feedback (both from fellow artists and regular listeners). Are we really as good as some say we are? And I'm not talking about those lame you-scratch-mine-i'll-scratch-yours "reviews" on the BB's. No - honest feedback from people who've actually taken the time to listen. In that sense, we've been successful. When someone tells me how our music has touched them (both on an emotional and spiritual level), I feel my efforts (and time) online has been rewarded. Making any money on doing this was never the intention. Actually making a few bucks on CD sales are considered a bonus. I make decent money working hard off-line. I don't think we'll make it "big" - if that's ever gonna happen it will not be on the internet. And we'll probably also have to stop playing Progressive music All jokes aside - I'm realistic about all this. I don't expect much - and have already been given much more than I have expected. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #16
JahNericMC Guru Posts: 288 |
posted 05-20-2000 11:51 AM
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I'd like to make music for a living someday if I can get away with it, and participating in this forum and getting tips from fellow musicians has really helped us improve I think. I'm hoping for the right A&R guy to stumble across one of our sites and be moved to tears, but that's a long shot and I know this. The biggest reward for putting our stuff online so far has been receiving emails from all over the world from people I don't know telling me they enjoy our stuff. That's a great feeling! Friends and family automatically "like" everything we do, but to hear it from someone we didn't even ask to listen and took the time to write is awesome. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #17
Dano Newbie Posts: 95 |
posted 05-21-2000 10:24 AM
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3 words; Fortune, fame, and JUMHOOD! ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #18
JimmyStewart Guru Posts: 236 |
posted 05-22-2000 11:23 AM
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Now DANO has his priorities straight!!  ------------------ [This message has been edited by JimmyStewart (edited 05-22-2000).] IP: Logged |
| #19
Kitusai Guru Posts: 257 |
posted 05-22-2000 11:41 AM
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Hello Bruce, it's a complete mistake, a pure happy life hazard, on the beginning someone told me that mp3 was an american short term for International Sheep Trade Market! ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #20
jeez Guru Posts: 234 |
posted 05-22-2000 01:20 PM
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For fun, palin and simple, and I have yet to be disappointed! ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #21
nakedDNA Guru Posts: 308 |
posted 05-23-2000 03:11 PM
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I'm with Robert on this one, basically a centering point for self meditation and therapy. But I do have a secret agenda: Working with real musicians, and claiming there contributions as my own music Actually I have a vision in which all these great musicians on the net are like virtual session players on each others tracks. I admit it's not like the real deal, where players jam realtime and are able to fuse their creativity. But beats the hell out of scheduling and costs for getting people together under the same roof to be able to work together. Who wants to sit in? ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #22
MINz Newbie Posts: 49 |
posted 05-23-2000 05:13 PM
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I do this because I'm a completly selfish bastard. Love making music + doing what you love = selfish bastard Posting my music on the web has given me exposure I never thought possible. With that exposure I have gained many new fans and more importantly made many new friends. It's the community that is the most important part for me. I will never let money enter into the musical equation. It will kill the honesty and without that I'm nothing. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #23
parzival Guru Posts: 394 |
posted 05-23-2000 06:41 PM
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Armen!! I like your vision!!! I often think Damn...If I could write a song and get Paul Leguiness to play bass, moe loughren and Darci monet to sing it.. why , I'd be famous!!! seriously though, this is a cool idea..if you want some weird guitar tracks on somthing...I'd love to do it!!
preacher ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #24
tim Guru Posts: 224 |
posted 05-23-2000 06:48 PM
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I can answer that by quoting some of my favorite artists right on this thread:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote: Or, to use my own words: What the hell else am I gonna do with all these songs? IP: Logged |
| #25
CompKid Newbie Posts: 7 |
posted 05-23-2000 10:02 PM
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Bruce- I began posting my music on the net in order to find out if it was really as bad as it seemed. Not that I thought my music was bad of course. To me, these songs were the essential distillations of my dreams and emotions, the painfully honest insights into my own and others' motivations. I agonized for months over a word or a phrase, rejoicing when they came easily and right, but working, working, working to get them down, to express them correctly. Then came public performance. That interface has always been difficult for me, although I've played music in public for longer than a lot of these pups have been on the planet. (my apologies to the pups- I'm not saying I'm better than you, just older and possibly more stubborn) The public response to my work was poor to mixed. I got a lot of puzzled looks, polite applause. The occasional spark of interest. The occasional lengthy conversation with that guy/gal who just decided to stop doing his/her meds because they were messing up his/her head. You know who I mean. So of course, I figured that I was playing to the wrong audience. (after all, it couldn't be my songs...) I hit upon a brilliant idea. I would record my songs on to 12 CD's (a little messiah complex there, heh heh) and send them out into the world with instructions that whoever got them should record them if they wished, then pass them along to someone they thought would enjoy them. I included an e-mail address where they could send their comments about how I had touched their souls, etc. 6 months passed, a year... no responses. What was up with that? Maybe I hadn't seeded them with the right people at the beginning- in fact, didn't they seem a little embarassed about the whole thing? Suddenly, I was saved by the mp3 thing. Aha! With the whole wide world out there, I will surely connect with my audience. I jumped in with both feet, April '99 at MP3.com. I actually went up the charts, I was in the top 5 of a couple of catagories, but I still wasn't getting off. Hundreds of downloads, 2 or 3 e-mails, not one DAM sale unaccounted for. It seemed that this wasn't unusual, but still, these songs are so good, so important! Why wasn't the world, or at least some small portion of it, getting all excited? Probably MP3.com's fault, so I posted everyplace I could find. I did what promotion I could manage- search engines, discussion boards, reviews... And now, after a year, with a fan base of (probably) 2, I have come to realize that it's just that old saying- too much heart, not enough art. From now on, I'm making happy music.
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| #26
Bruce Satinover Guru Posts: 246 |
posted 05-24-2000 02:51 AM
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Just thought I'd write and say I'm reading all of this and it's very interesting. There seem to be some underlying themes here: * Doing music because you like doing it. I'm paying attention, I just haven't figured it out yet on my end. Here's one tip, if you are not playing traditional music you are in for a difficult time if you honestly expect people to even give your music a listen. Bruce ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #27
STILL Guru Posts: 307 |
posted 05-24-2000 04:25 PM
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I thought the question was about using mp3 sites, not why people are musicians. Why I'm a musician is another can of worms entirely, and personally I was much more interested in the question of the mp3 sites. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #28
JimmyStewart Guru Posts: 236 |
posted 05-24-2000 04:43 PM
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I'm there Armen...  ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #29
RazoR Newbie Posts: 19 |
posted 05-24-2000 04:46 PM
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"Here's one tip, if you are not playing traditional music you are in for a difficult time if you honestly expect people to even give your music a listen." I honestly thought people would like something different.....but the one thing i've learned is that people like styles they are familiar with, even to the point where it doesn't matter if the band is completely ripping off someone's sound....stoopid me. Bruce, there is one compelling reason for you to continue.........band 22...:P ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #30
Bruce Satinover Guru Posts: 246 |
posted 05-24-2000 05:55 PM
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STILL, I'm talking about both as I don't see that much seperation on a personal level. Razor, As far as I'm concerned none of the sites are doing the job ListenSmart excluded as they're still in beta. Bruce ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #31
nakedDNA Guru Posts: 308 |
posted 05-24-2000 06:30 PM
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One guitarist at a time! I'm working on stuff from Bob. Scott and Jimmy, I'll cash in the favor soon Note to LS: How about a back door, idrive style, dropboxes for artists? That way people can browse and collab! Bruce, you sorta got your answer regarding your success with experimental/minimal work: Many people like conventional genres. They look for conventional stuff within each genre. Some people don't like conventional stuff, they look for them in unconventional genres! In other words, trying to be different within a classified framework is less successful. Look at all the sub-genres in electronic music. When you get that specific that a genre means only a limited range of BPMs or even equipment used, then it's hard to find your targeted audience. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #32
Andrew Hickey Guru Posts: 407 |
posted 05-25-2000 08:06 AM
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I could have sworn I'd posted here before... there's several questions here... I create music because I need to. It's a basic need to me, like eating or sleeping, only more so (I'd gladly go days without food or sleep to get a song right if it needed it). The only thing I need more than to make music is to listen to music. I signed up to MP3.com as a way of selling CDs. Not to make money, but because I had friends in other countries who wanted to hear the music I was making and it was cheaper for them to buy DAM CDs than for me to send tapes out. I then switched to AMP3 when I realised they existed. I had (and have) no problem with giving away my music, but if (as is always the case on the internet) someone else is making money from it, I want at least a token payment... That was the reason I signed up, but there are several reasons I've stayed on these sites.The most important of these is that I'm very interested in other musicians' opinion of my music. So far all we've put up is four-track demos, so we could hear what the song sounded like, but the feedback we've had from others was invaluable when we went into the studio recently to do 'real' recordings of the songs (which should be available in some form or another within a few weeks). Surprisingly there seem to be at least a few people out there who genuinely like what we do... The second reason is money. First the AMP3 $ download scam, and now the LS publishing deal, offered a way to at least break even with the cost of making the music. If we do get 50 cents per download from LS, then we no longer have to worry about recording costs, and may even turn a moderate profit. In my financial state that's a big incentive... The third reason is the community. There are several people on the boards I genuinely consider friends. Not as many as other people seem to have - I'm not as easy to get along with as some of you - but I have friends on these boards and intend to keep them. Despite all the e-commerce nonsense, the true value of the net is its ability to bring together people who otherwise wouldn't have met in real life. Promoting the net, as is being done more and more now, as a kind of virtual shopping mall, is to me like promoting the phone as a tool to call up catalogue companies... And Bruce - you shouldn't worry. Mainstream music will always get more listens than non-mainstream stuff, but there is an audience for your stuff, and that audience is far more appreciative than the audience for more mainstream music, as far as I can see. The best music I've heard on these sites has been the most unusual - X-Space, Just John, Hey Frankie, JamFree, although I've also liked some stuff in more conventional genres as well. (The reason I haven't bought any CDs by these artists is a mixture of poverty and lack of credit card. If they'd been on musicbuilder where they accept cheques I would have bought at least one or two at points when I was a little richer...). ------------------ IP: Logged |
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